The Road We Travel

Rick,

Amazing post. Thanks for sharing it.

James

Rick: Living in the Portland/Beaverton area I know this church well. Thanks for pointing out John's post. Here is the comment I left to his post:

"This is a wonderful vision and I'd love to see more of our churches in the Portland area move towards it. Still, I see a need not to just transform form and practice, but the people. We must become a missional people in all respects. This is a much more complex and involved task than moving to the Emertional model."

The Emertional model appears to be (and I apologize if I'm wrong) to be more of a restructuring of the traditional churches practice and programs, not a deep fundamental core change.

Rick,

Pastoring in a rather traditional church, yet appreciating many of the hard questions being posed in the emergent church movement, this gives something good to chew on.

I haven't read Gibbs and Bolger's book yet, but I have it in the queue.

And to give an overly simplistic response to blind beggar, I think to do some of the things he describes requires at least some changes at the core. Many of those changes will be at the level of the paradigms under which we operate. They may not be full-on emergent shifts, but for someone in my context even a move in that direction might be a positive thing.

Some interesting thoughts there. I agreed with some of it. And honestly... in my opinion...some of it sounds like psycho-babble. Some of it is very profound. Some of it completely misses the mark.

For example:

"I agree with Gibbs that the church must embody its message and life within postmodern culture or it will become increasingly marginalized."

I don't agree with that. I think this statement places to much emphasis on what WE do. I think it's God's church that has survived for 2000 years and it will be here when we're dead and gone. I think God has a distinct plan for his church and it will come to frutition.

Critical to the Emertional Church is radical connections, where people are challenged at both a gathered and small group level to be community.

Psyho-babble. RADICAL connections has no meaning.... unless the person wants to explain in what ways they are radical... or to give some specific examples. But RADICAL is a cool word to use and it appeals to a certain segment I suppose.

In my opinion people don't need to be challenged to be a community. To begin with, I believe when we're "born again" we're wired with that need. It becomes part of our nature at the same time we're gifted. When I meet people who have no desire to be with other christians, no desire to live in a christian community, sharing their lives.... well in my opinion.... people who lack this need probably aren't truly re-born. What new Christians need is discipling from mature christians to help them best channel this inherent need for christian community.

Structures are servants that lose usefulness when they become so inflexible they can no longer contain the fermenting Jesus.

More psycho-babble. All structure is useful to somebody. Jesus is fermenting? I realize it's poetry....

This requires that the Emertional Church also be deconstructionist, calling for the tearing down of structures, ways, habits that inhibit ministry, while continually constructing what is necessary to thrive in the world of today and tomorrow.

I couldn't disagree more with this statement. And I would predict that when the writer of this statement is 65 years old and someone comes along and tears down all of the structure, habits, and comfort level that this person has within his church.... that he'll wonder why he ever posted such.

What is missing from this post is a clearl biblical directive. When I read how Paul established churches... I read them being set up with Elders "running" them. A church where the "old" people made the decisions and the young people respected them for their years, maturity, and experience. And I believe Paul set it up this way so that the church would not be blown from shore to shore with the prevailing wind, in the exact manner this person is recommending.

Certainly this article describes a cool new church model.... but in 15 years it won't be new anymore and somebody will be calling for something different. You know... I was young once too... I completely understand where much of this comes from.

Truth that really matters is not so much proven by arguments as verified by changed lives.

Yet Jesus says he is the Truth.

I've seen people lives changed over the years for both good and bad. People who walked away from God. People who became bitter. They're changed lives allright... but they don't have the truth. And I've seen people come into a chruch with a completely changed life. With an incredible testimony behind them. And in a few years they're nowhere to be found. The seed was sewed on the rocky soil.

Honestly... that previous statement makes little real sense to me from a practical, reality type of view.

The Emertional Church places great value on monologue and dialogue. Preaching is not an option, but a mandate. But there is also room for dialogue, for community involvement in constructing worship, orienting the direction of a sermon, setting in motion creativity and the arts. There is a need to reach both ear and eye, and all the senses for that matter. The Word of God proclaimed with clarity, its message delivered by one with the posture of a preacher....

I thought this was well said.

I'm not trying to be negative. But I am hoping to present another perspective. How a different segment of our church might view this article.

And, I do appreciate the opportunity. I appreciate a pastor like Rick who has a heart for his chruch and provides a place like this for exchange of ideas and perspectives.

I have a question: What do you consider the marks of a succesful church?

Doug and I have been contemplating all this as we've looked for a church and considered planting one.

You pegged how we feel about the whole emergent/traditional thing. One of the chief problems we have found in emergent churches is an avoidance of established doctrine, which we view as dangerous. Some of them even seem to border on universalism in their attempt to be accepting to all.

However, many of the traditional churches are just dead, or so introspective that they seem to exist simply for the edification of one another.

So if you could create your "ideal" church, what would you view as evidence of its success?

Kiki said, "So if you could create your "ideal" church, what would you view as evidence of its success?"

Here's my ideal:

A place where the Word is preached faithfully, where God's people pray fervently, where believers live in community sincerely, where the Great Commission is taken seriously, where the times are understood discerningly, where doctrine is taught confidently, where believers celebrate corporately, where the members honor their shepherds lovingly, and the Great Shepherd is loved passionately.

Thanks,

James

God has a distinct plan for His church, to be sure. It is that His church will become an force that can't be stopped as she charges the gates of hell all around her. It is that she will be a haven for the hurting that are on the mend. It is that she will become nurtured and beautiful in anticipation to that great wedding day...through both the means of the ministry of prayer and the word...and also the carrying out of Christ's mission. It is that she becomes a very pungent fragrance of Christ that reminds the saints of life and sinners of certain doom.

It is not to be a social club only. It is not to be safe...in the sense that we don't reach out to the beggars and the homeless and the addicted and the abused and those who are different than us in ethnicity. It is not to be a bastion of extra-biblical tradition. These things - traditions that are more style and form issues are the things that are changeable.

Sunday School has been in Southern Baptist life the place where community life was to happen. Thank God that it has happened for for so many. What I appreciate about CRBC is that we have kept Sunday School...but recognized that there may be a more intimate setting in which even deeper ministry and fellowship can occur for the masses.

I like the fact that the elements of community that Ken has described have been lived out for many and are still promoted in Sunday morning classes as well as in-home community groups. I think it's a both/and deal...not either/or.

I couldn't agree with you more James.

What do I consider the marks of a successful church? What type of church would I plant?

I do agree with what James said. And I agree with parts of the original post. Such as this part "The Emertional Church values both incarnational and attractional. There is a place to gather. In fact, a body that reflects the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ can be a greater influence on the community than believers simply scattered. There are occasions when the church attracts, and the community responds. Easter, Christmas serve as immediate examples. But people in this model must come largely through people; not through events, programs, celebrities, slick advertising."

I think that is dead on.

Let me say this. I think that a successful church ministers to the flock. First and foremost. And I think if it does that really good... the flocks grows spiritually, and then it grows numerically. I think as the church teaches its members God's word, and how to apply that to their lives... they become able to reach out to non-christians that they encounter in their daily lives and make an impact. I agree that nobody is on fire for the Lord like a new christian. But if you're talking about running the race for the long haul... I think you need mature christians carrying the ball for you most of the time. And so I see raising up mature christians as fundamental.

I see different activities within the church aimed at different peoples both in and out of the church. I see the morning gathering of believers to be aimed at the church. I know others don't see it that way. Just my personal opinion. I see this as a time for the believers to worship their savior, and be re-energized after a week "in the world".

But I see other aspects of "the church" that should be aimed at those who don't know christ. And I think we're only limited by our imagination in this area.

I am a strong supporter of the Acts 2 model. It think christians living out their lives together is esscential to individual christian growth and to local church growth. I can't imagine going through my life without my christian friends.

I would plant a church that supports missions both international and in our own community. You know some people are called and able to take mission trips. To carry the message of the cross around the world. Some are called to live that life. Some people aren't. Myself, I have a physical condition that still would prevent that. But I support missions both financially and with my prayers. So I think there is a place for everyone to do their part.

I think that a local church that isn't mission minded is missing the mark.

But in my mind... the key to planting a successful church is to plant a church that ministers to the local community of believers. If you're looking in a retirement community, planting a post-modern church with a "rock the flock" service probably isn't a good idea. If you're in Wilburton Oklahoma, it probably doesn't work to well either. If you're in a young area or culture.... I think you preach the word and "rock the house".

And I want to say this... planting a church in a retirement community is as important as planting one in a young community. Ministering to senior adults is serious business. And I am so thankful that CRBC does this very well.

But I want to say .... If a local church doesn't do a good job ministering to the believers that make it up, it will never be as successful as it could be on a larger scale. That's just my opinion.

I think the church is called to preach the gospel around the world. Baptists obviously do that cooperatively :) Maybe not as cooperatively as some would like :) But seriously... "the church" is called for that. We're instructed to reach the world. But yet when I read Paul's instructions to ministers such as Timothy, I think that primary focus was probably for Timothy to minister to the local "flock".

Does any of that make any sense?

Both of you guys make some good points. I'm taking notes.

I have a question, though. Shouldn't the church be EQUALLY about nurturing believers and reaching the lost?

Here's where we are right now, and I welcome any input you can give.

Here are some things that we see as marks of success:

1. If we have a "revolving door"--lost people coming in, and Christians leaving to intentionally plant their lives where God calls them(secular jobs, church vocations, missions, etc.)

2. A firm foundation in the Word. We want every member to know how to dig into the Bible and study it for themselves before they leave.

3. An understanding of the core doctrines of faith. In a place where a "seeker-friendly" model of church is too prevalent, and watered-down/universalistic theologyy is rampant, we want our church members to understand that there are indeed some essential doctrines in Christianity.

4. Freedom in Worship. We want the church to understand that when we come before God, we are on Holy ground. While creativity within worship can enhance worship, the focus must remain on God. People should be free to honestly express themselves in worship, although in a manner that does not detract from God's glory.

5. Fellowship. We already find this is a natural outgrowth of really studying the Word and praying together. Intimacy grows when we spend time in the presence of God together, and in service together.

6. Outreach. We are to be channels of what we are receiving. As it comes in through us, then it should be flowing back out to our church, our community, our nation, our world. We are to be about social justice, caring for the "orphans and widows", persecuted church, and unreached people groups.

7. A recognition that all of our resources belong to God. That means our time, money and talents. We are to constantly be seeking His direction as to how to be good stewards.

8. Prayer. This is the foundation of EVERYTHING. We want to always be a people of prayer.

9. Lifestyle evangelism. Evangelism is not something we go and DO. It is something we ARE. We are the "aroma of Christ" or a "fragrance of death" wherever we go. Evangelism should be so integrated into our everyday life that we are conscious of it and look for promptings of the Holy Spirit in every interaction. Evangelism is based on relationship, and does not stop at sharing the gospel. It carries on into one-on-one discipleship with the new believer.

Kiki,

It seems like you and Doug have a pretty solid grasp of what makes for a truly successful church. The great thing about these principles is that they work in any cultural context. I especially like what you say about having a "revolving door" where people continually go out to serve in other places and training people to dig deep into the Word themselves.

I think part of what Ken is saying (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that if the leadership of the church focuses their efforts on building up the body (through discipleship, fellowship, ministry, and worship, not by catering to their every whim), then the body will be equipped to go into their workplaces, schools, neighborhoods, families, etc., and share Jesus with others. So the church as a whole IS equally focused on both nurturing believers and reaching the lost, but the leaders of the church devote more of their time and efforts to the former so that the members can do the latter. I think that this produces the healthiest churches and believers in the long run. Based on what I have seen, in most churches where the leadership is primarily focused on evangelism the church may see a lot of decisions but few people are becoming committed followers of Jesus.

Pastor Rick- Great post, thanks for sharing.

Kiki- I agree with your posts, but especially like the part where you ask "Shouldn't the church be EQUALLY about nurturing believers and reaching the lost?" I also like the revolving door concept.

Kristina

Tim,

That's a good point. One I needed to hear. I tend to naturally lean more towards evangelism. So sometimes I need to be reminded that investing in believers and equipping THEM to share their faith is also ultimately evangelism.

Thankfully Doug is VERY strong in equipping. And we do use a mentoring model, although to be totally honest--I sometimes feel like "why are we spending so much time with Christians, when I could be using this time to speak to more lost people?"

One thing God has been teaching me, though, is that planting seeds, watering and sowing are all equally parts of evangelism. It's so important to be sensitive to the timing of the Holy Spirit. If I am too zealous to "get to the gospel", then I can get in the way of His timing.

Yet when a person comes to Christ, the people who sowed, prayed for, and watered that person evangelized them, too. It is not just the "point of delivery" that "counts" (Is this making any sense?????)

A great book on the subject is "Permission Evangelism" by Michael L. Simpson. Very practical.

Kristina--

Thanks! I enjoy reading your comments on here.

I think that our discussion here is very interesting. What I think I'm seeing are people who may be agreeing much more than one might have initially anticipated. Just listen to the themes that are being heralded. They are all in harmony with one another. I love it.

Thanks for your very well thought out comments, Kiki, Tim and Ken.

I do believe that the primary role of an under-shepherd, a pastor,is to equip the saints to do the work of ministry. I do believe that the primary tools that he is to use are the ministries of prayer and the Word. I do believe a shepherd is to do the work of an evangelist.

When the saints are equipped and strengthened and are stirring each other up to love and good deeds and having modeled before them one who is doing the work of an evangelist then won't evangelism be caught by and incorporated into the daily lives of the flock?

Question: Is it true that what you attract people to will be what they expect?

Discerning the times, yes. Relating to people by getting rid of pious language, etc. is good; but we must keep in mind that God really is calling them into a new community with a new set of rules and a new language. Sinners are being called to something different, radically different.

Certainly, we must be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

Tim... God has truly gifted you in the ability to understand "rambling" and present it precisely and accurately :)

Kiki... It sounds like you and Doug make a VERY good ministry team.


James... I am so glad that God has brought you to CRBC.


Question: Is it true that what you attract people to will be what they expect?

Hank Hanegraf has phrase that I've heard him say on more than one occassion that is along this line. He says "what you save them by is what you save them to".

Just a couple of thoughts re: the church becoming "marginalized."

Whether we like it or not, the church IS becoming "marginalized" in an increasingly pluralistic culture. Sure, there are places in North America (mostly still in the South, but perhaps a few in the midwest) where the church is still seen at the "center" of the culture--where people "go" to church because its the culturally acceptable thing to do and where the local paper still calls the pastor of First ________ Church for a quote when major events happen in the world. But there are far fewer places like that today than 25 years ago, and there will be far fewer still--even in the South--in the next generation.

I would propose that we should EMBRACE our inevitable position on the margins. For its first few centuries, the church was "marginalized." Has post-Constantine Christianity seen the supernatural power or the exponential expansion that was the case before "Christendom"?

We're still stuck in a mode of thinking where from our supposed position at center, we're trying to attract people to us--the norm--FROM the "margins". But hasn't the church usually seen the greatest evangelistic harvests in those situations where it is decidedly COUNTER-culture?

Without advocating another "Jesus Movement", I will suggest that ministry from the margins FORCES believers (churches) to rely on supernatural power for the mission. Seems like that could be a helpful development for the church in North America.

Ken, Thanks.

SS: very insightful. The early church wasn't popular...it was persecuted...marginalized if you will. Constantine was the first "celebrity" to make it, some semblance of Christianity, normative..the "cool", "in" thing to do/be...thus, Christendom.

Interestingly, while Christendom has held it's ground in some places in the U.S. other believers world-wide have lived in conditions more like the early church...persecutions, etc. In many of these areas the church has flourished.

I agree with your assesment. Let's be a powerful force, an Unstoppable force...even from the counter-cultural margins.

Kiki,

I'm much more inclined toward teaching/equipping, and I'm all too familiar with the tendency to emphasize the area of our strength and passion to the detriment of other vital areas. What I have to constantly guard against is teaching for the sake of imparting knowledge without helping others with application. When it comes to evangelism, I have always been stronger at watering, fertilizing, and pulling weeds than at preparing the soil, planting, or harvesting.


Ken,

The reason I can understand rambling is that I wrote the book on how to do it. But for some reason, the publisher said he couldn't understand a word of it. :) I've written sentences on blogs that took up about 10 lines of text. It's bad when you have to diagram your own sentences to figure out what you just said. And I'm a better writer than speaker, so pray for my congregation on Sundays.


SS,

Very keen observations. So I guess the million dollar question would be, "How do we shift our thinking from approaching the culture from a central position to one on the margins?" Especially for those of us who are serving in areas where church is still a major part of the culture. How do we break away from that mode of thinking, what Reggie McNeal calls the "club mentality," where the goal is getting people into the club and maintaining the club?

Tim,

I think you serve in a harder mission field than I do. It's a lot easier to talk to an atheist sometimes than to a "cultural Christian." By that, I mean someone who has grown up immersed in Christian tradition, but never found a relationship with Him.

I've been praying for you. I know things are tough in ministry right now. Your family has been very much on my mind and heart. Hang in there.....and don't grow weary in doing good. You will see the harvest someday.

I agree, Kiki, a cultural christian is harder to witness to. They've sort of been innoculated to the gospel by constant exposure. I know, I used to be one.

Tim - don't quit. God bless you with His great patience.

Tim,
I'm not sure I have a perfect answer to your question since every church is different and every (sub)culture is different.

I'm rolling some stuff around in my head that I haven't been able to state coherently enough to post. I'll e-mail you or post on your blog when (if) I can ever get it organized.

Intersting to read all the commentary. I liked the article and am gald to see such things being discussed. My wife and I are planting a church right now in OKC. Definitely the most challenging thing I've ever done. We have wrestled with many of these questions. I personally liked the deconstructionist discussion. When we take something down to its essence, we get a greater sense of its purpose and meaning. That process may be painful, but it is also Biblical. Look at what Jesus did with the law codes in the Gospel. He took them to their intent. That was a painful process for the religious leaders who lived and died by those laws, but it was necessary to prepare the true church to thrive after His resurrection. I agree with the comments about part of the church's role being to equip the saints, but one thing I noticed and found funny was the description of Christians spending a week "in the world." I'm not really sure what that was supposed to mean. I'm thankful, and teach my people to be thankful, for every moment spent outside the walls of the church "ghetto" and alongside real people who are seeking God. To understand our place "in the margins" as was being discussed, we must first come to the understanding that Jesus prayer in John was not for us to be taken out of the world, but that we would be protected in the midst of it.

Side note- Rick, enjoyed meeting you at Chili's this week. Blessings on your journey,
Ryan Abs

but one thing I noticed and found funny was the description of Christians spending a week "in the world." I'm not really sure what that was supposed to mean. I'm thankful, and teach my people to be thankful, for every moment spent outside the walls of the church "ghetto" and alongside real people who are seeking God. To understand our place "in the margins" as was being discussed, we must first come to the understanding that Jesus prayer in John was not for us to be taken out of the world, but that we would be protected in the midst of it.

Well since I'm the one that caused you the counfusion.... maybe I can help clear it up. (it wasn't really that hard to understand to begin with because I'm not that deep of a thinker)

This is what I mean..... It is a sinful fallen world. It is often evil beyond measure. As you stated, we christians are to be in it but not of it, and Jesus did pray for our protection while we are in it. But I do believe that Paul set up churches and ordained the gathering of the believers for a time that christians could re-energize. For the body to be together.

I appreciate the fact that you teach your people to be "thankful" for time spent outside of the church walls. I'm not sure I agree with it though. I think you should tell your flock to be thankful for the opportunity to witness and proclaim the message of the cross to those who don't know it. And there is a difference between your statement and mine. But, you should warn your flock of the dangers like any good shepherd would. Because believe me.... there are dangers out there. There are christians in the world every day who fall. Who stumble... and some don't get back up.

I'm not sure why you need to call the church a ghetto.... but I guess maybe it's cool on some level and I dont' know it?? You view the world as "real people who are seeking God". Yet the bible teaches us that none seek God except those that are called by the Spirit.

Your view is maybe encouraging to the flock that you send out... but it's also a little naive if I may so.

I'm thankful for the time I can spend inside the church walls. I would tell you THAT is what heaven is. Heaven is being with God and his people, behind the walls. Where sin, evil, and the world do not exist. So yeah.... I unashamedly look forward to those times. I like to gather with the saints and praise God. I like to be free from the issues that living in the world create, even for just a period of time once a week. And... I think it's what God intended for us.

Pastor Rick-
Wonderful to see so many comments coming onto your site. Not only are you able to minister at our church, but online as well. Thanks for all that you do! Also, thanks for your insights!
Kristina

Ken-
It's ok, we can agree to disagree, but I need to ask you a question. These believers who fall and do not get back up. Whose conscience does that lie on? Paul seems to indicate that it is the responsibility of the church to build up, guide, protect, and discipline those who struggle. How can you do that if you see people once or twice a week? The reason so many "fall away" is the lack of spiritual support away from the church. Those who are New Testament believers have a responsibility, a mandate, to build deisciples as they go whether they attend church with someone or not, and that my friend means approaching each day- church day and work day with a spirit of rejoicing and celebration.
BTW, "ghetto" is not a "cool" term it is an indictment of the church. We have created a "church culture" where we speak a different language, perform certain actions, and generally behave in ways that cut us off from those we are called to reach. It is a sad, but true statement, that most who attend church view their role in the kingdom as little more than serving their own church or church's interests and letting anyone who is not willing or able to associate with their church fend for themselves. You'll notice this in direct opposition to Jesus' admonition to be salt and light in the world. If you think this is something only myslef and a few of my "naive" congregants believe I suggest you take a look at independent research done by groups as diverse as George Barba, US News, and the Gallup organiztion to get a real understanding of the divide between people of faith and people looking for faith.
One final note, I caught the "people seeking God" comment and I'm sure we could dialogue for days with proof texts and theologians and opinions, but let's just do this. How is someone who is seeking God going to encounter a person of faith (which is God's choice of conveyance of the Gospel) if the people of faith never make it past the doors of their churches with anything other than a "grit my teeth til I can come back to where everyone's like me" mindset. That's why I call my people to a rejoicing of their time in the midst of the real world, and I think it's why Jesus was more at home with the "sinners and tax collectors" than He was with the religious elite of His day.
On His Journey,
Abs

I read this blog just before I went running, God put one on my heart you might like:

Inspriational/Relational

It's my personal burden that we use the "witness by our actions" as a crutch far too often in today's world. I'm the most guilty human ever of it, it's my prayer that I change.

With that said, would it be alright if I called you sometime this week so that we might be able to meet this month?

We can agree to disagree. I personally think the word ghetto implies more than you think it implies. I think it includes dispair, brokeness, poverty, poor in spirit, hopelessness, crime, corruption. And I also think your condemnation on the church as you state it is unwarranted.

You said... ""church culture" where we speak a different language, perform certain actions, and generally behave in ways that cut us off from those we are called to reach.

To begin with.... in this country we're not cut off from the lost. Most Christians are in the world every day and it is important how we present ourselves. It is not our language or our actions that prevent people from "hearing" the gospel. People reject the gospel because of this...(From Colossians 3) 5Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

It's not our language that the world rejects. Most people are looking for a way into heaven that lets them continue living the way the want to. And Christianity (as Steven Curtis Chapman puts it) says "what about the change".

I agree with you that many christians serve God behind the walls of the church. Are we all called to be on the front lines? Are we all prophets, preachers, healers? You know... there are probably those who should be on the front lines that aren't doing their part, but I'm not sure how you and I really distinguish between those called for the front lines and those that aren't.

I think christians fall and stumble for a number of reasons. Sometimes it's because of a lack of support during the week, as you indicated. Sometimes it's because the church they go to on weekends doesn't minister to them even then. Sometimes it's because they are weak and the world is strong. Sometimes it's because they are the rocky soil. I think there is a lot of reasons, and I think it's a strawman argument on your part to imply that it is because churches don't minister to them during the week..... while you're suggesting that these same christians need to be "in the world" hanging out with the "sinners" more than they are now.

Often they fall just because they are weak and aren't steeped in the word. I remember a youth pastor years ago who stressed to us when we were kids the importance of "knowing what we believe, and why we believe it" because we will be challenged on what we belive when we leave the comfort of mom and dad's home. He was exactly right.

Barna?..... LOL...you know ... honestly... I don't put much stock in someone who says the bible doesn't teach us to go to and support our local church.

I don't think there is any way to reconcile a view that sees the world as "real people seeking God" with Paul's stated view of the world. I would challenge you to study for a while what Paul says to the churches about "the world".

And I'd like to ask you one theological question. Do you believe there are people in hell that would have been saved if the church had used a different more culturally relevant approach to present the gospel to them?

And though I only know you from your writings... I'd like to make a suggestion in all seriousness. You are looking to plant a church in a city that has a church on every corner. Some of these existing churches are looking for pastors. I think it would benefit you greatly to pastor one of these churches that are without... and when you do it... to make loving that flock your primary goal. To devote yourself to teaching them the word in and out of season. To devote yourself to growing them to be strong, mature christians who can pass the test of time. To take over one of these churches with your complete focus being serving, protecting, and loving that flock as Jesus loved his disciples. To realize that those people are "real people". I think if you do that your church will grow... and you'll lay up treasures in heaven for yourself.

Blessings

Ok Ken, I'll answer your questions and then let this go. It's obvious you would like to paint me into a theological corner. I am not a Calvinist or Reformed theologically. I think people go to hell because of sin, not because of a church. Further, I think people in our country have a hard time understanding the Gospel b/c it comes with so much church culture baggage. I'm sorry if that upsets you, but if you spent a week in my shoes with the people I minister to and serve you might understand. I am sure you serve and share in your context. I am very troubled by your assertion that not every believer is called to the "front lines." Not everyone is a pastor but we are all part of the priesthood of believers. That is as old a Baptsist, and NT doctrine as you can get. Everyone was madated by the Great Commission to share. Finally Ken, I find several suggestions in your comments that suggest I am uneducated and unschooled in the Scriptures. As you say, you know me only from my writings. Were you to meet me, you might chnage your mind. Blessings on your Journey.
Abs

I certainly didn't mean to imply that you were uneducated. Obviously you are. (wouldn't hurt for you to understand that paragraphs are your friend) :) just kidding :)

But I'm sure you are well studied. And I'm glad to know that we agree that nobody is in hell because the church isn't culturally relevant in the way it presents the gospel to them.

And I apologizie if I seemed upset? Actually I'm having a great day and I'm not upset in anyway.

Best wishes in your journey!

Michael,

Call me anytime. Email me and I will give you my cell phone.

Ryan,

Thanks for stopping by and for your great insights. I am praying for Journey Church and your great ministry there. I am glad to see that you and Ken have made up.

Kiki,

I want to be a part of your church! It is obvious that you guys have devoted a lot of time and prayer into your philosophy. I think you are spot on and have captured the essence of what a New Testament Church should look like. If you are able to pull it off as you have dreamed, it will be very difficult to revolve people out of it!


Tim,

Great thoughts my friend. God has great things planned for you.

Ken asked: "And I'd like to ask you one theological question. Do you believe there are people in hell that would have been saved if the church had used a different more culturally relevant approach to present the gospel to them?"

Let's change the conversation slightly.

BEFORE TIME:
God wrote a book...before He created the universe. He also considered His Son as good as dead...before He created the universe (the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the earth). God named this book in honor of His Lamb/Son...the Lamb's Book of Life. He also put people's names in this book prior to creation. This is His business and His soveriegn purpose...His mind, His thing...salvation truly is of the Lord.

IN TIME:

God has chosen not only the ends (salvation of those He's chosen) but also the means to that end. This is where many, not all, people who believe in particular election run off track.

It's not enough to simply believe that God has chosen to rescue certainly some out of the cesspool of wickedness...we must also live out the means God has ordained to that end, namely, a passion for Christ that will result in a passion for souls...a truly heart-felt, heart-breaking love for souls.

Just because we have a high view of God's activity in salvation and His ability to save souls doesn't mean that we should passively sit in the glow of that Soveriegn ability. His ability is carried out through His people...that is, He's ordained the means of accomplishing His ends.

How will they hear without a preacher, Paul asked. How will they preach unless they're sent? How beautiful are the feet of those who spread the gospel.

God has ordained that His Bride, the Church, be salt and light in a society that is in chaos...to the end that people see our good deeds and glorify our Father in Heaven.

This is therefore part of the big picture. While a church must...absolutely must, as a mandate from God, preach the Word to build up the Saints...it must also speak to the world for Christ. It's not either or.

If I want to give you a very important message...but I tell it to you in a foriegn language..how will you receive it with understanding? The problem is not with the message...or the messenger...it's with the method employed.

God has definately ordained the ends...the salvation of His elect...but what if He's ordained that His church, while insulated from the world...reaches out to the world with acts of mercy and love seeking all the while for an opportunity to share the gospel with whomever we come in contact?

God bless you and thank you for your continued thoughts.

James

Man James.... I always appreciate what you say, and the way you say it. You always have great insight.

I'm serious, this was an excellent statement that you posted. I think we both agree that nobody will miss salvation because of how the gospel is presented to them. And we both agree that we are commanded to preach the gospel to the world. To our neighbors, to our friends, to everybody that we come in contact with. To be that beacon of light.

I would like just a little bit of clarification though on one part of what you said. You said.... "If I want to give you a very important message...but I tell it to you in a foreign language..how will you receive it with understanding? The problem is not with the message...or the messenger...it's with the method employed.

I'm sure we'll both agree that the Holy Spirit will play a large part in the timing, and seeing that the message is received etc. But what I want clarification on is this...what exactly do you mean when you say "problem"? By the rest of your post I know that you don't mean the "problem" is people not being saved. So maybe my question is how does this problem manifest itself? What exactly is it?

Being the fundamentilist that I am... I tend to think that when we talk about "how" we present the gospel... especially if we're debating cultural relevance in the 21st century etc.... I think what we're really talking about is who we reach. Whether we reach people my age and move them into our faith based, biblical community that we call a local church, or whether we reach 25 year olds and move them into our community.

I think we both agree that God is going to save them, and that he already knows who will speak to them, what will be said, and when they will accept him as their savior upon the calling of the Spirit.

You know.... I think it is important HOW we present the gospel. But I don't think it's as important as IF we do or not. I think the Holy Spirit blesses when the gospel is proclaimed.

What are your thoughts on 1 Corinthians 2: 1When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power. 6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him" - 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16"For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

Seriously James..... I am SO GLAD that God has brought you to CRBC. I didn't know you very well until the Thrusday night concert, and until I started reading this blog. You are an awesome man of God and CRBC is fortunate to have you.

Ken,

You're gracious. Thanks for your comments as well as your questions.

In my last blog I was trying to speak to the issue of the means God uses to save His elect.

It is by the Holy Spirit's quickening through the clearly spoken gospel message.

That message is only...only understood by the power of the Holy Spirit. We don't need to worry about trying to be slick or polished...or hope that we market just right. That's worldly garbage.

However, we must recognize where a person is culturally, educationally, developmentally, emotionally, etc.

When Paul spoke to the intellectuals at the Aeropagus he began by speaking to them about their religious predisposition. He said that he noticed they had many gods...and one in particular was a statue to an unknown god....this is the one he proclaimed to them. If you read Acts 17 he uses language that is more of what a philosopher would appreciate.

When Jesus spoke to the woman at the well He did so in a manner that an immoral woman who'd been married multiple times would understand.

We're supposed to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

We're not talking about being slick and polished and full of human wisdom.

Instead we're talking about being strategic..about speaking the "language" of the person to whom we're witnessing. This is a means of being clear as a preacher of the Word.

One more illustration: When I preach to children...I'm simple and childlike...to teens, more profound yet light-hearted..to senior adults...respectful and gracious. To an inner-city, urban, drug addict...tender and welcoming.

These "wise as serpent and harmless as dove" strategic ways of witnessing should be used based on the person with whom God has granted us an opportunity to share the gospel.

Great passage you quoted. What do I think of it? Well, I have some of it penned in the front flap of my Bible...and, I open it and read it as a last minute reminder before I get up to preach.

Well stated James. Nothing in there to disagree with :)

I do think it's important to relate to who you are speaking to. The example you used about children, teens, and senior adults was very good. That's why you don't find to many 46 year old "youth pastors"... :)

And I agree with you that there is probably a line that the chruch might cross over from "relating to people" .... to instead being all about "a marketing strategy". I'm sure different people draw that line in different places. I would guess that you and I draw it in a similar spot.

I've started a little bit of a study on Corinth.... the interesting cultural metroplex that it was during Paul's time.

Have a great week James!

Hey James..... I just remembered something else.

Do you remember (or are you old enough to remember) the old "I've Found It" campaign? The bumper stickers etc.? And they had a call center here in OKC.

I remember as a youth at CRBC going to the call center a couple of nights a week for a month or so and making the phone calls on the automated dialer deal. Telemarketing. The caller answered, the machine displayed their name, and you asked them if they were a christian or not.... and then followed the "yes - no" tree out until they either hung up on you or prayed the "sinners prayer". Seriously. Now that was a crazy marketing strategy that I wouldn't repeat now that I'm older :)

Talk to you later

Nope..don't remember of that auto-dialer, "come-to-Jesus" witnessing strategy. Pretty interesting...and a little humorous. Perhaps we ought to leave that one in file 13? :)

God bless you. Enjoyed the dialogue and look forward to the great things God has for us at CRBC. I am very excited about what God is doing...and very glad that God has brought Rick to the church. He's right on.

Love you, brother.

See you around.

James